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Deja: Hi, and welcome to Big Ideas.I’m your host, and Mount Royal University journalism alum, Déjà Leonard.
Big Ideas explores the diverse perspectives, timely research, lived experiences, and hopeful aspirations of MRU alumni, faculty, and students as solutions-focused leaders addressing local challenges.
This season we’re digging deep into wellness in the 21st Century. From aging to technology to our finances, how do the complexities of modern life impact our well-being - for better or for worse?
Let’s check out what we’re talking about in today's episode…
“And I, and I think one of the anxieties I have about the, the way the concept of happiness is presented today is it, it's often presented with that image that you have to be wandering around with a big grin on your face all the time. I don't think that's how most people work.”
Deja: That was Dr. Allison Dube. Allison holds a Ph D from the London School of Economics, and is a tenured professor in the General Education department here at MRU.
Throughout the years, Allison has taught many students at Mount Royal. One of those students is Daniela Torres. Daniela is currently in her third year of MRU’s Human Resources program, and has taken several of Allison’s courses.
In this episode, I met up virtually with both Allison and Daniela to discuss the topic of “Happiness”. Have our expectations for happiness changed across generations? Has being “happy” become an elusive state we think we’ll reach only after we accomplish the “next big thing”? When social media makes it seem like everyone is doing life “better”[00:02:00], how can we possibly feel a sense of fulfillment with reality? Let’s jump into this conversation.
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Deja: You know, when we were thinking about the podcast, we knew we really wanted to have a conversation about happiness early on in the season. It’s really a bit of an expansive and elusive concept and it certainly impacts people's wellness or at least their perception of it. So I'd love to really start there. Daniela, how would you say yourself or your peers are defining happiness these days?
Daniela: I think that right now, for my generation, happiness is more so something you get and an emotion you get, eventually, once you're kind of done hustling and once you're kind of in a state where you're financially secure and have time to do things that you think kind of bring you happiness like your favorite hobbies and stuff. Um, I know for a lot of my friends. They, they tell me they're like, I'm unhappy right now. Like I personally don't feel happy with where I am in life because I'm studying a degree that I don't want to be studying or I'm at a job that I hate right now, or I'm too broke to like, move out right now. And so when talking about happiness, everyone just kind of says like, oh, I can't wait to be happy, in the future, once I'm, like, financially secure, once I don't have to hustle anymore and work three jobs at once. So I would say that happiness is more of an emotion and an idea that we think of obtaining in the long run versus something that kind of just comes as we progress through life, if that makes sense.
And so I feel like a really big problem in my generation is the social media because it was supposed to be, like, a technology that like helps us and helps us do things easier and like helps us advance, but now it's something where it's like we feel we[00:04:00] have, like, all these pressures like from our parents from society to kind of accomplish certain things by a certain age. And then we're feeling stressed and that's why people my age like you see people having three jobs at once and grinding because they feel like by a certain age they need to have a family. They need to have settled down. They need to have a certain amount of money or their first apartment purchase. But then it doesn't help when you're feeling all of these emotions and then you go on social media and you see a 20 year old that's a millionaire on a yacht and she's working a social media job and making four times more than you're making, grinding at like, your internship.
But of course, like, we all know social media is just the highlight of the best aspects of your life. It's not real, but that distinction gets really hard when you're constantly going on it and seeing people that, in your mind, are doing way better than you, you know?
Curious about the impact of social media on happiness?
Check out anxiousgeneration.com
Deja: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I'm curious, Allison, your thoughts on that. When you think about yourself, maybe some of your peers and how you look at happiness. Are there similarities, differences between Daniela's experience?
Allison: I think one part of what Daniela said is actually fairly common for people my age. I'm 72. And that is the, I'll be happy when I get this far. I'll be happy when I'm done hustling.
And fortunately, I'm blessed with a great job, but that issue of I, a lot of people my age are working to put a down payment on a child's house, and I'll keep working until this, ‘til that, so they're, they're, I, I think older people share at least part of what Daniela described of, is there a way to make a shift from thinking all the time, I, I'll be happy then, to wait a minute, [00:06:00]I'm actually happy now. And I, I would, I would imagine that's kind of a secret to happiness.
Deja: Hmmm, yeah, makes a lot of sense and I think what you're saying and where things can get a little bit muddy is that we have, some people are looking at happiness, um, you know, as an, as an emotion. That can be fleeting. And then some are seeing it as it's kind of a goal to reach and once you reach happiness, you are therefore happy, maybe forever. Uhm, so do either of you have a take on that? Is that, is that kind of accurate?
Daniela: Yeah, so what I observed with like my generation is everyone's waiting for happiness. They're like waiting for it to hit them and they think of it as something that they'll eventually get once they're done kind of hustling in, you’re always wanting more. So like for right now a lot of people are like, oh I want to save up to move out, so they're working two different jobs, but also staying in school. But then once they move out and I have friends who would like have reached that point are already living in their own apartments They're like, okay, now I'm going to wait until I have enough money to get this car that I've been really wanting.
And then that comes and they're like, I'm going to wait until I find my boyfriend and find like the person that I want to like settle down with.
So it's kind of become this like train of ideas that, it's almost like a fantasy, like they're waiting to reach like the next best thing. But in doing so, they're never truly happy because they're thinking of happiness as something that will eventually just come versus realizing life is a lot of ups and downs and it's okay to like have moments where you're not happy.
And another thing that really like resonated with me was the traveling. Um, I know in my generation,[00:08:00] almost every single person I've talked to says that that's like the number one thing they want to do. A lot of people are studying degrees that they don't necessarily like right now, but we're okay with the fact, um, that a degree is hard and that we might not like it right now because we're thinking of it long term. Okay, if I get a degree I can make more money with a better job, but I want to use that money to travel. And with me travel has always been something that I really wanted to do and I'm fortunate enough to have gotten to travel to a lot of places already. The way I was able to travel to a ton of places was because I got my first job at 13 years old. And so I was able to save a lot of money, but by 14 I was already working full time and I kind of skipped out on a lot of things kids get to do. I didn't get to just like, be a kid. I started being in the workforce so young that it's like, yeah, I still got to travel, but at what cost, you know?
Allison: I, I'll share an anecdote. When I first started my Master's program, I found it very intensive. Well, of course I, I was studying at a grad level for the first time. And I was doing courses, working on my master's thesis. Uh, also I was a teaching assistant for the first time. And I remember being so strung out with all the responsibilities. I went to complain to my supervisor, an incredibly wise man, and he listened very patiently, and then he looked at me and said, Allison, this is the happiest time of your life.
And all I could do was sit there and think, wait a minute, wait a minute, he's kinda right. I really wanted to be a grad student. I really wanted to start getting teaching experience. I really wanted [00:10:00]to start using my mind on a, at a graduate level, I was actually happy, but I had to be reminded that I was.
Deja: So, you know, one interesting stat that we came across in preparation for this is from the 2024 World Happiness Report. And that was that there's really a stark contrast in happiness levels of Canadians who are 60 plus and those under 30. The report was saying that for older generations, happiness in Canada ranks 8th in the world, whereas for young people, happiness is ranked at 58th.
So Daniela, I think you gave a lot of great, kind of, context there about how social media, internet, hustle can be potentially impacting some of that. Um, you know, Alison, do you think that there's always been a gap in happiness between generations? And I, when I ask that, I think about when you were younger and you looked at the older generation and now as you're part of an older generation, um, looking at young folks as well.
Allison: That's such a great question and part of it I don't know how to answer. My parents’ generation, uh, was in a day when nobody had a lot of money. Uh, I, I come from a middle class family, but dad would work, was a school teacher. He had other jobs when he could get them too. There was not a superfluous amount of money around.
I don't know if there's a statistic about how, in quotes, “happy” they were. They were satisfied and they just did the next thing. And so because they wanted me to have a better life, I had, had less stress. Uh, there was not as much pressure on me to just get out and get a job. They, my, my dad believed in education[00:12:00] and sacrificed to make sure I had a good one.
And now I look at people in Daniela's position, and I think, well, I had it pretty easy. And in fact, when I talk with my age peers, we all tend to agree, yeah, we had it pretty easy. For example, when I was Daniela's age, it was generally assumed that after your first degree, you would go off and travel around the world for a while. Now, uh, my students are reporting they'd love to do that, but their parents just say, no, we can't afford that. You have to get into the workforce. Or people have the internalized pressure to do the next thing.
I believe that Daniela's generation is in a much more competitive world than I was. And also that the social media aspect and all media, in fact, only makes it appear more competitive.
Deja: Uhm, I think you made a really good point there when you also said appear more competitive, you know, I think a lot of things on the internet we think of, uh, you know, reality versus fiction or whatever, where you see a lot of people who might seem successful on the internet or you're, uh, inside on a Friday night and it seems like everyone's partying, but the people who aren't are just not posting about that. So it kind of distorts our view of what's really going on and what our peers are really doing and what standards we might need to reach.
Allison: One, one thing I'll say that's a bit of a side issue, but I want to make sure to say it. I, Daniela would remember when I'm introducing [00:14:00]the difference between generations to a class, I'll do a comparison group and I'll point out that a group of 40 students Daniela's age and then compare that group of 40 students to a group I would have been in back in the early 70s when I was that age.
And in so many ways, Daniela's generation is way better than we were. I mean, let's be honest, in, in, which of those two groups had the most genuinely intolerant religious bigots, the most, the most homophobes, et cetera, et cetera, well, my generation wins all of that. Uh, but there's one thing that we did that Daniela's generation, not Daniela, but so many in Daniela's generation, really suck at, and that's daydream.
And. So often when I'm, when I'm on a city bus and I, you know, when I'm on the bus, I just stare out the window. And that takes me back to the days I would have been taking the bus to school. You stare out the window because there was nothing else to do. And you start dreaming. It's Calgary. It's February. You start dreaming, man, where would I like to travel to get away from this crap? And then in class, in a class, some old fart is droning on and on at the front of the room. You, you don't have any escape. If you're in the room, you got to listen, but you're not really listening. You zone out. And I would go so far as to say my dreams about what I wanted in the future were often born in those zoning out daydreaming moments.
One of the issues that I worry about, about the pre-programmed nature [00:16:00] of media, is it's cutting into people's individual creativity to just dream, to just get away on their own.
Daniela: I completely agree. Like, I think part of daydreaming and why it's so important is to have those periods of time where you know you're not anything because during that time is when you'll actually realize what it is that you really want to do and you'll be able to make that change, but I feel like my generation is just so used to being overstimulated and we're so used to jumping from task to task to task and not having a break other than like a two-day weekend and even then sometimes working throughout the weekend too and we're so used to like getting less sleep and to feel like we always have to grind that it's like we feel like we can't even pause to daydream and to think about what it is we really want to do. So really it's like we're grinding and we're constantly on “Go” mode then if you stop and you ask someone about what are you grinding for sometimes people can't even fully answer like they can't even tell you what their actual goal is because it's like wait, I got so caught up in having to keep myself busy and then having to achieve my goals that I forget like what even was my goal?
Like, why did I do this to begin with? And it's really easy to lose sight of the things that you want to do and to make time for like, your hobbies and for stuff that really brings you passion.
It's really easy to lose sight of all of that when you're just constantly on “Go” mode,
and you feel like you can't pause and you can't take any break and then that's really dangerous to in a world where we already feel so much pressure from social media and from parents too.
It's important to make sure you take a break, breathe and realize, well, what's actually important for me because your parents aren't going to be around forever. You're not going to have the same friends forever. You’re not always going to[00:18:00] be in a world where you feel like social media has you like at its grasp and is controlling you. So it's important for you to like think for yourself and to think well, what do I actually want out of this world? But you can only do that if you're able to take that break, you know, and like Allison said to actually daydream.
Allison: One, one aspect of this that I think we have to put on the table, in spite of what I said, I, I want to go on the public record as saying, a lot of periods in a person's life are not really set up to provide glowing happiness. Ah, it's. it’s a work a day world, unless you're born with zillions of dollars. And, and, and, you know, the, the, the rest of us poor sods, we, we got to get out and we got to hustle. We got to try to get a better job or a decent job. And then, oh, even the people with the best jobs on the planet, I, I believe as a professor, it's one of the best jobs on the planet. But there's a lot of routine, a lot of committee work, a lot of marking. And you're thinking, I don't really want to do that.
But, the capacity to just go into that.
And I would say a crucial part of happiness is to say, wait a minute. This is a, this is a job. I just got to do this and you just do it.
It doesn't make you happy. But one of the phrases I think about, have thought about, is periods, uh, in my life, which sounds very negative, but I actually think it's positive is I would think this same phrase, you don't have to like it, you just have to do it.
Don't have to like it, you just have to do it. And then you just do it. [00:20:00] And yes, by doing those tasks, you accumulate a sense of satisfaction. Yeah, I did it. And I, and I think one of the anxieties I have about the, the way the concept of happiness is presented today is it, it's often presented with that image that you have to be wandering around with a big grin on your face all the time. I don't think that's how most people work.
Deja: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. It's kind of finding that balance, I think, maybe between really being able to prioritize your happiness, and your health and your wellness versus, like you said, grinding in the hopes that toughing it out might help you reach some semblance of happiness long in the, in the distant future. Um, and I really like where we're going with this, you know, we've kind of touched on how people are thinking about happiness and maybe some ways to, to sneak in more of it. Um, Allison, you've talked about this a bit. I think daydreaming was a great example. Do you have any other, you know, advice that you would give a younger generation when you're really thinking about practical tips of experiencing more happiness, more often. And when I say that, I really mean like those moments of happiness, not trying to gain some state of, of happiness forever.
Allison: Honestly, the biggest tip I can imagine is kind of the opposite of what you're going to. Although it ends up in the same place. You know, when you're 72, you, you look back over your life and you think, uh, man, I really screwed that one. Or, man, how did I, how did I miss the boat there? Or, etc. I, I thought about this a lot[00:22:00]. One of the things I would do if I was doing my life over again is not dwell on things that I had been through, that I think I messed up, as long as I have. With relationships, for example, relationships, sometimes they work, sometimes they don't. But I, uh, one line from one of the Beatles songs, step on the gas and wipe that tear away. I wish I had had more of that capacity, uh, all through my life.
Deja: Daniela, what about your perspective? What would you say to your generation right now when they're thinking about, like, how can I recognize or bring a little bit more happiness into my life?
Daniela: Yeah, honestly, this sounds easier said than done, and it sounds so simple and stupid, but I would say don't take life so seriously. Like, don't get me wrong, there's times where you have to be serious, and yeah, it's important to, like, strive for your goals and to have something to work towards, but at the same time, like, I always tell my friends this when they come to me crying about, like, a guy they just broke up with or they need advice, And like, at the end of the day, we're just dots on the universe.
Like, nothing you do is that serious. So, try new things. Like, explore different things. Be comfortable with being uncomfortable, because that's the only way you'll be able to know, like, what you actually like. And, like we talked about earlier, a big problem in my generation is, like, trying to please their parents, or trying to please, like, their peers, or social media.
And to that, I would say no one knows what's best for you, except for you.
Yeah, your parents might be older, they might be wiser, but you need to remember it's their very first time going through life too. Everyone's just lived life once. They don't know what's best for you. They might know what would've been best for them, what could've worked differently for them, but you're a completely[00:24:00]different person living in a completely different generation. So don't get caught up in trying to please your parents and trying to please your friends. It's not a competition.
Everyone has so many different paths. Don't worry about like not being on the right timeline. Oh my gosh, I need to start university right now because I don't want to get behind, but behind in what? Like it's, it's your life. There's people who start university at 40 and are super successful and living a great life. And there's people that never do university and also living a great life. Like there's so many different paths. So I would just tell people don't spend time dreaming and fantasizing about like your idea of a perfect life. Life isn't perfect, just spend time actually living. Doing new things, like don't be afraid to embarrass yourself.
Deja: I love that advice. And then Allison, um, I believe you said something um, along the lines of, you know, in one of our other conversations, if you had one wish for Daniela in the future, It wouldn't necessarily be to be happy, but to achieve, uh, ataraxia, I believe. Can you kind of explain that and walk us through that?
Allison: Yeah, or at least I can try. I, I remember when I was studying philosophy in my first degree, the, the pre-Socratic philosophers, a couple of them, I was reading about this concept. Ataraxia is…it's less a positive, okay, I'm going to do this to be happy, I'm going to do this to be happy, I need this to be happy, I need that to be happy. It's more the absence of things that make you unhappy. So it's the, the, the literal translation is peace of mind or satisfaction or unperturbedness. So, some things you do in[00:26:00]life, you're gonna be, uh, you know, uh, having a fine meal in a starred restaurant in Paris. You're gonna be looking around thinking, man, this is pretty good. Uh, the rest of the year, you're gonna be, at, at home, uh, working at a sales job or whatever you don't want to be doing and thinking, yeah, I don't know.
But at the same time, both those situations have that sense of, this is me, or, when I think of the years I looked after mom and dad, it was not a recipe for happiness, but I did have a sense of verging on ataraxia in that I understood this was what I should be doing. There was no, nothing else on the planet I should be doing than that. And that gave me a great amount of satisfaction.
So, that sense of ataraxia, it's, and one of the things, we talk about social media, as Daniela has gone into so well, you see stuff you want. You see stuff you want. You see stuff you want to be like. Ataraxia is more eliminating all that stuff and thinking, well, I'm not in such a bad place. It's the eliminating these sources of bother. So I, and I think that's a trap people of every age get into.
Getting more stuff increases the bother level. So I, that, but that sense of peace of mind, Daniela is indeed going, it's part of the world. she's going to have to do things that, grind through those periods of years. But can you look at yourself and say, this is what I'm supposed to be doing. I'm, I'm satisfied [00:28:00]. I can't concentrate on what I want. Uh, I have this sense, I, I may not be enjoying every day, but I have a sense of, uh, unperturbedness because this is what I have to do now.
I think that's a – It's more approachable than happiness. It's something you can feel all the time, if that makes sense.
Deja: Thanks for sharing that, Allison. And hearing all of that, Daniela, do you kind of have any closing thoughts about ataraxia or Allison's wish for you?
Daniela: Just that, that's my wish for me too. And there's a reason I'm so close to Allison. You know, going into first year, I didn't even want to like, be in university. I didn't know if it was the right path for me. But I think there's a reason that I resonated so much with everything he was saying. So much so that I took another class with him. And it's because, The way he talks right now and the advice he's giving right now is the very same advice he already gave me before. And he's one of the reasons that I decided, you know, I'm not going to quit this internship one week in. Because that's how I was feeling, like, first week. But he's also the reason I started traveling more. And, he actually encouraged me to travel. I went, um, to the Dominican and a lot of all my other profs were telling me, oh, you're gonna be missing like four days of school. Like, you're gonna be really behind. We're not gonna do makeup tests. Allison was like, Daniela, my only wish for you is to go live those experiences. Go have fun and tell me all about it.
Everything he says is something I completely resonate with and it's something that I want for myself too. And it's because I wanted that I’m okay with doing uncomfortable things right now and trying new things and I think that that's what everyone my age should be trying to do is not so much trying to chase happiness or please other people but just live [00:30:00]in the moment and try to find that peace of mind for yourself.
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Deja: This episode really got me curious about the actual definition of “happiness”... so I looked it up. Merriam-Webster defines happiness as “a state of well-being and contentment, or, a pleasurable or satisfying experience”.
It's not a particularly glamorous definition, it's just about contentment, satisfaction. This makes me wonder if we’ve oversold happiness in recent years, especially with the rise of social media.
The Big Idea I’m taking from this conversation is that life IS a grind, it is at times mundane, disappointing and even tragic. Life is in constant flux, cycling through moments of joy, deep sorrow and everything in between.
Happiness is not a destination, it exists in all moments. The trick, is recognizing it.
The Big Ideas podcast is produced by the Office of Alumni Relations at Mount Royal University.
A special thanks to MRU journalism and digital media alum, Gabrielle Pyska, for her savvy editing talents.
Until next time, I’m your host, Déjà Leonard and this is Big Ideas.
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