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Déjà: Hi, and welcome to Big Ideas. I’m your host, and Mount Royal University journalism alum, Déjà Leonard.
Big Ideas explores the diverse perspectives, timely research, lived experiences, and hopeful aspirations of MRU alumni, faculty, and students as solutions-focused leaders addressing local challenges.
This season we’re digging deep into wellness in the 21st Century. From aging to technology to our finances, how do the complexities of modern life impact our well-being - for better or for worse? Let’s check out what we’re talking about in today's episode…
There's still that sense that, okay, yeah, there's, uh, there's an end in sight now, and that can really hit home. And I mean, there, to be really personal, like, I can lay in bed in the morning now, and this has just happened in the last few years, I'd say, where it's like, what the heck is going on? Like, how did this happen that, you know, I'm this age?
That’s MRU alum, Joan Gregory.
Joan has completed three different credentials at Mount Royal — a continuing education certificate in Studies in Aging, a Social Work diploma, and a Bachelor of Arts in Sociology — all started after the age of 50.
She’s currently working as a research assistant at Mount Royal’s new Centre for Health and Innovation in Aging, alongside Jocelyn Rempel. Jocelyn is the centre’s director, and also an MRU Alum.
Together, Joan, Jocelyn and I sat down to talk about getting older, our fear of aging, and more importantly, aging well.
[00:02:00] I started off this conversation with a pretty tough question…
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Deja: Ah, Joan. So this is, you know, perhaps a, um, existential question. Um, but when did aging become a reality for you and how did that feel?
Joan: I first, um, thought about age, really when my father went through the process and his journey. Because, um, I was his primary caregiver. And for a period of 14 years. So over the course of that time, he was aging. And I was trying to navigate his journey. And, that was a real eye opener, for me. And I had to learn more about the systems. And because, you know, I like learning and gaining knowledge. But also out of necessity I thought, um, I need to know more so that I can be a better advocate. And that's actually what prompted me to take the Studies in Aging program, um, to begin with. And, but, actually, as I was going through his journey with him, it was also occurring to me,
I was in my 40s at the time, and it was occurring to me, oh my goodness, you know, this is happening to me too.
And, you know, we're in such a youth centric culture that we deny, you know, our tendency is to deny that we, too, are aging. And even despite all those, you know, um, milestones and transitions we go through throughout life that mark, you know, like the end of childhood, the beginning of adulthood, young adulthood, you know, getting into the middle years, um, we still don't have that realization, I think, until we actually care for somebody older, um, or, you know, yeah, it's happening to us. We, we have an experience that we can specifically cite or point to as, yeah, you know, like, not just the physical, like, greying hair or wrinkles [00:04:00], but, somebody, you know, addressing you in a supermarket and calling you sweetie, or, you know, doing things like that that are, tend, tend to be maybe patronizing, um, that you really recognize that, what, that's me, they're talking to me? Because you don't necessarily, um, feel that way on the inside.
Deja: Mmmm. Well, yeah, thank you so much for sharing that experience that you had with your, you know, father in aging. And I have a question. I think it would be great for both of you to kind of jump in on, you know. We live in this world that's very much focused on youthfulness and anti-aging when it comes to so many products and marketing, and they're making a lot of money telling people this will help you stay youthful. So, the big question here, I guess, is, and maybe Jocelyn, you can start, is where do you think this fear comes from?
Jocelyn: Well, I think it does, there's a lot of influence from our society.
I think if you look at our kind of western world, We don't value aging. We don't value getting older. I think we have this fear of death.
So the closer we get to that point, the more scary it becomes. You know, we don't, we don't know what it means and we, we don't see growing old as, as something that's valuable or something that we want to do, right? We don't see the value of that and, and I mean, you look at other countries. There's, I guess an old story, I guess, or common saying, and they say that when an older person dies, it's like a library burns down. And I don't think we see that, see it that way in our culture, unfortunately. So, you know, we, we don't, we think that as we age, we become less valuable. We don't, We don't think that they have anything to contribute, which I think is completely false.
Uh, so I think, you know, we don't want to get older because we don't want to be seen that way or be that. Uh, so I think I, I think that's where it comes from, [00:06:00] essentially, is unfortunately our culture and our media just kind of perpetuates it as well. Like you said, it's a huge industry. Right? Staying younger and, you know, what you can do to stay younger is a huge industry. So, when business is behind it, it becomes a difficult thing to shift sometimes.
Deja: And you know, I actually came across, um, a term called FOGO, so F-O- G- O. Um, it's kinda of like FOMO, but it's fear of growing old. Joan, did you have any thoughts to add to, to that question about the fear of, of getting older?
Joan: That is a loaded question. I think the biggest thing is to understand that it's, uh, it's evolving. Like, it's just not, like, throughout your life, you, you are evolving as a person.
And so, no matter what your age, there's still development, there's still learning, there's still, you know, meaning and purpose.
And the, the thing that I'm most aware of though, at my stage of life now, is the, I guess you would say, the finitude of life. Like it's more of a reality. You can't, I can't, you can, I can't though, deny that there are fewer years ahead than behind. And, I mean, over the natural course of a person's life span, like barring serious illness or accident. Nowadays, we're kind of destined to live a long life overall. And, uh,you know, as the years, decades go on and science progresses, maybe even, you know, into our hundreds. But, there's still that sense that, okay, yeah, there's, uh, there's an end in sight now, and that can really hit home. And I mean, they're, to be really personal, like, I can lay in bed in the morning now, and this has just happened in the last few years, I'd say, where it's like, what the heck is going on? Like, how did this happen [0:08:00] that, you know, I'm this age?
It's, it's hard to believe. I can't wrap my head around it because I just, it's, it seems to, even though we know we're aging like we've talked about before, it just really seems to creep up. And then one day there's, at least for me, because it is subjective, but there's this sudden realization that, yikes, you know, I'm, I'm in, you know, what they call, you know, the, the third chapter, or, you know, even though I, now I'm, and there again, it's an ageist thing, but it's like, yeah, but I'm only just, you know, I kind of comfort myself, yeah, but I'm the young old, you know, I'm not, I'm not the old old yet, you know, but, uh, so, yeah, there's that, and there's some, you know, there's I think the biggest thing is just there's still so much I want to do.
Um, so many things I want to learn and experience. And, it's just, like, I'm just, like, tightening the reins, you know, like, slow down, you know. But, I mean, so it's, it's grappling. Like, and there again, that fear. I think that's, a lot of it is that. It's like, yeah, you can kind of see the end. You know, if the older you get, the closer you are, to, to dying, perhaps. So. Those are my, those are my optimistic thoughts.
Deja: I appreciate it. Like, uh, your, your thoughts and your vulnerability, it's, it's really excellent. Um, and I feel like we could definitely go so much deeper on some of those topics. But I want to shift a bit and just talk, um, a bit about Jocelyn, a little bit here. So first off, I find your work so interesting. Um, I know you started off as a nurse, and, honestly, I haven't heard of many nurses who wanted to go into gerontology.
Jocelyn: Mm hmm, yeah, that's right.
Deja: Gerontology, work with older folks. So, what sparked that inspiration for you, or how did you get there?
Jocelyn: Yeah, I mean, you bring up a good point. It sometimes is a difficult sell, if that's what you want to call it, to get nursing students into this area. Um, I don't think it's like, what we've talked about, it's just that attitude and views that we have towards older people, so it's not necessarily the first area [00:10:00] that they would think to go into. I have to say it was the same for me, you know, I went to go into pediatrics. That was the area that I was, I was set on. Um, but then I, I had some experience with seniors and older people, uh, and just really appreciated it. Just really enjoyed it.
I love the people that I met. I love the stories that I heard. I love the relationships that I could develop with these people who just had this rich life.
And I think you can learn so much from that. Just, you know, on a personal level, but then also just, you know, how to care for, for people in general. So, uh, I, I shifted and I went into this area and I haven't looked back since. And, and it's been fascinating. I think it's been an area where it requires a lot of advocacy. So I feel very passionate about it. I want to make sure that we are advocating for older people and just the care that they, they do get. Um, and I think, you know, from a medical standpoint. You know, as you age, there's a lot of complexities that come your way, and it makes it a very unique population, a unique group of people. I mean, you have not only physical changes, you know, you have age related changes, but also more prevalence of chronic disease. But then there's a lot of shifts in someone's life. Maybe their spouse dies, maybe they, they have to move, maybe they have to go to a higher level of care. So there's a lot of transitional pieces that happen in that later stage of life that need to be understood in order to actually provide the best healthcare possible.
Because I think, you know, our system is not set up for older people, um, I mean, you have, you go to the doctor's office, you're allowed one problem for seven minutes, and that's it.
But, you know, older people require a little bit more than that, just because, they're usually, there might be multiple medications, they might be going through transitions, they, they, you know, they, they might not have enough money, there might be some other social determinants of health that we need to look at and identify. Um, so I think that's why I like that, this area, is that it is very complex and, and I like kind of that problem solving and, and helping people with sometimes these very [00:12:00] complex problems. So, uh, I think that's what led me to this area and that's what's kept me, um, in this area as well.
Deja: Um, and now you are the Director of the Center for Health and Innovation in Aging at MRU. So can you tell us kind of what the mission is there and some of the work you're doing?
Jocelyn: Yeah, sure. So, uh, I've been, um, I started the center a few months ago and really the purpose of the center was to bring more awareness, uh, of older people, not just on campus, but the community as a whole. And I think, uh, you know, part of that was to encourage programming that is inclusive of older people, try to make our campus a little more age friendly, age diverse, uh, and then also, it does have a focus on innovation. So that is looking at digital health and health technologies. And our world is shifting right now. Our health care system is shifting right now with all the new developments, new technologies and AI and machine learning. And I want to make sure that older people aren't forgotten because they are often forgotten.
So especially when you, when you think of technology and you think of older people, you don't often put them in the same sentence, right?
And usually if you do, people kind of, cringe. a little bit, right? And, and I want to get rid of that stereotype. That's a big stereotype that we have. Uh, and I think, you know, technology can be very useful for older people. It can be useful for the workforce that takes care of the older people. It can, and I don't mean just like apps or, or things on your computer. I think it, it goes a lot broader than that, even in preventative care. You know, like helping, helping um, people function. Uh, like we were talking about earlier, that compression of morbidity. How do we prevent and, and avoid these chronic diseases and these things that impact your functionality from happening so that you can live the best life for as long as possible before you maybe have a decline.
So, that's really essentially the purpose of the center. The other purpose is to bring people together for us to have an, a community where we can understand, we can collaborate [00:14:00], we can do research together, and then hopefully inform, um, inform different programs, or maybe the programs inform the research, uh, and have, have it be, have it be there for knowledge translation, um, and information and resources for not only older people, but students and faculty and, and the broader community.
Deja: Yeah, well, I think one example that, uh, Joan mentioned was the Intergenerational Speaker Series. Um, which is an initiative that you and Joan work on together. So, could you tell me about the goal of that series?
Jocelyn: Yeah, sure. So, the Intergenerational Speaker Series was started in collaboration with, uh, the Calgary Association of Lifelong Learners. So, this is a group of people in Calgary that are mostly retirees. They, they really believe in, in continuing that learning process even if they are retired. retired, they still want to learn, they still want to engage, they want to, you know, meet people. Uh, so that's really essentially the purpose of that, of that association. And we thought, um, so a couple years ago we got together, and we thought this would be a great program, for our campus. Uh, cause we don't really have a lot of programs that include older people on our campus itself. And, and as a way to increase the age inclusiveness and diversity. We started this speaker series. And the speaker series brings older adults from the community to our campus, uh, to intermingle with students. So this, this event is for both older people and students. Uh, and you don't really see a lot of intergenerational programming that actually includes younger adults and older people. Some of the programs you see are usually, you know, preschool and, and older people or daycare and, and, and older adults.
So, uh, this was a bit unique, I think, uh, a unique approach, uh, and it's gone really well. So we get together, we have a speaker, we learn something, but then the majority of that, of that, of every event is for connection. And that's what people love. We had, we had only about 30, 40 minutes of, of connection time during the first year [00:16:00] that we ran this. But all of our, so many of our, evaluations were like, we need more time, we need more time to connect, we need more time to get to know one another. So I think it just shows that there's a need there and people really enjoy it. Um, and just to get to the purpose of it, the World Health Organization came up with a global report on ageism and one of the best ways to combat ageism is intergenerational connections.
Because I think we form these stereotypes, we form these prejudices against other people because we don't know that group of people.
So in order to combat that, you bring them together, you get them, you, you help them understand one another, who they are as a person. And usually that tends to shift their perspectives on, on one another.
Deja: That sounds really incredible. Uh, Joan, what was your experience like being part of the series? Did you have any highlights or anything you'd like to share?
Joan: Well, um, it's, it's been a great learning experience. I'm really excited about, you know, the, the programming part of it. But also what I've learned that's probably surprised me is, um, just, uh, the lack of young people that I've had in my life. I have, I have a son, but, a child, but, I mean, he, he's grown. And so I don't, I'm not around a lot of younger people, and I've really forgotten, you know, what it's like to have that energy, and also the intellect, you know, and, the brightness and, you know, and, and the hope, you know, I think, you know, I tend, I can be cynical, you know, about certain things, and so, for them, you know, even though they're going through, you know, challenges that's common to the context of, you know, their lives and what they're going through these days, the world being such as it is.
And, they, they still have that, um, feeling that anything's possible. Like, you get that, you know, and they're, you know, they are the ones that [00:18:00] will find the solutions.
Deja: Jocelyn, are there any other ways MRU or the Centre are looking to, to bring diverse generations together on campus that you want to share?
Jocelyn: I mean, I'd love to expand the speaker series and do a mentorship program, uh, so it's just a matter of finding some resources and, and willing people to, to do that, so. Right now we're just doing, we're doing an environmental scan of Mount Royal to see who's actually involved in aging. Because I think we, we get in these silos and we don't even know who's actually involved in, in this space, in this area. So, um, I think that's, that's kind of a next step.
Uh, I think just even having Joan as a research assistant, that's a good way to get, uh, older adults involved. Um, another way that we've involved older people is just through some research that we've done. And we've actually brought the lab to the, to a senior facility. So, I think that was a great way to, you know, even though the research wasn't around intergenerational connection, but I think it provided some of those intergenerational connections because students went to the senior living facility. They were there for six weeks doing the testing, uh, for the research.
And I think a side effect of that was that they actually created relationships with these people. So I think, you know, they, they got a broader understanding of aging and what that means. So even though we're not bringing, even though we didn't bring other people to campus necessarily or per se, but we, we, we still help formulate some of those, um, connections, so.
Deja: Yeah, that's great. And you mentioned research, which is kind of what I want to get into next. Um, and maybe kind of starting at that high level is historically, how has the tech industry and research processes left older people out of the equation?
Jocelyn: Well, I think they, I don't think they often consider older people in their, in their research and this is a different group that should be considered. I mean, even with one[00:20:00] of the research studies that we're doing, it wasn't originally, it's a, it's a technology that's used for, improving balance and gait in, in, in people, uh, and it wasn't created for older people originally, but they realized that this application would actually be useful for older people.
And I feel like that's a lot of what is happening with technologies. They develop something and then they think, Oh, this would actually may be applicable for, for older people.
So I think, um, you know, it's, we're starting to see a little bit more develop, like more developments for the aging population. Cause I think we see, you know, there's this longevity economy is what, what it's often, often framed as is there, there's the Baby Boomers that are aging and getting older and it's a big economy. So I think people are seeing, um, maybe even the business case around that and the technology, but I mean, maybe that's okay cause then we'll come up with solutions that will actually help those who are, older now, but then those who are actually aging and getting older.
I mean, we have significant amount of age just normal age related changes that happen and occur to the body, but we never actually study it in that cohort. We just study it usually with kind of middle age or, or younger people. So we don't really know how medications truly work in later life, right? That's just an example. We, we prescribe them, but you know, we have these bodily changes that happen as we age, but we don't necessarily know how that works. I mean, this is becoming, this is a technology that's quite interesting now, they're, they're, they're able to actually see how the medication works with each individual person. So I think, you know, healthcare will become more personalized and, and applicable to, to everyone, not just, not just the aging, but, um,
I think if we don't, if we don't include them, then how do we know what we're providing, especially in the healthcare space, that it's actually effective and, and worthwhile?
Joan: I would just add [00:22:00]that in terms of research itself, that, um, a lot of times, I think the majority of times, research is done about older adults as opposed to, with older adults.
So, bringing more older adults into the research process, um, so I have to commend Jocelyn for, for hiring me and not just, you know, as a research assistant even, to give, give me that opportunity. But, um, just in general, like a lot of research is, it looks at, it looks at the data about older people, but the people actually doing the data are included in the study, or developing the research questions, which is really where it all starts, and such an important aspect of research, is including the older adult, like bringing them to the table.
You know, asking them, you know, what are the questions you would like asked? What, what do you want to know about? I think it's a gap. It has been cited as a gap. And so I think that's something that, you know, the Centre can, can look at down, down the road, you know. And, and the other thing is the participatory research piece, where you're involving students in the research, you know, doing the research itself. Or a collaborative participatory piece where, you know, you have older adults, paired up with younger students doing the research. So those are really great ways of, I, of, of learning, like not just doing the research, but it's the, um, um, kind of the experiential or integrative piece that a lot of, you know, both older adults and students could use and you would learn, you learn so much more when you have an investment in, in it at just, as opposed to being a participant of research.
Deja: Yeah, absolutely. And just making that process accessible to the people that you're trying to serve. So that sounds like a ton of work, [00:24:00] and I understand that, you know. Research and technology and those things, it's a long process. Um, that needs a lot of support from different, like you said, community partners, university researchers. I guess, you know, my question is, should we see aging well as like a community effort?
Jocelyn: I, absolutely. I think so. Um, I think, you know, there's a lot of… there's so much complexity I think, right? I kind of mentioned this earlier, that complexity of aging and, and just even the, how inclusive we are. Uh, you know, cause we think, I think we often think, you know, as a person gets older, and they're not able to take care of themselves, well, we need to put them in a home or put them in a facility. But I don't think most people want to move from their home. Um, I mean, sometimes it is the best option for them. Especially if they are isolated and, and, you know, that social interaction is better for them. Uh, but at the same time, you know, we want to make sure that we're, you know, Keeping people where they want to be, right? So helping them age in the right place and, and, I think that does take community efforts, right?
So looking at, you know, how accessible is the community itself? There's Age Friendly Calgary, right, that's really looking at communities and, and are they accessible to older people? You know, what are the opportunities for, for older people? Are there different ways for them to connect? Uh, cause I think they become, the opportunities become a little bit limited as you get older. And I think that's unfortunate because, you know, typically, you probably have a little bit more time because you are retired, maybe you're not working a full time job, and they would love to give back. So, you know, I think it does take a community effort, to ensure that older people are aging well.
Deja: Joan, do you have any thoughts on that one?
Joan: My words too, uh, my word too would have been absolutely. Um, and the age in the right place. It used to be aging in place, but now it's age in the right place. And I think, that has, that, they're, they're saying that should, it should be addressed [00:26:00] from basically a biopsychosocial perspective, where you're looking more holistically. You're not just looking at the health of the individual, but you're looking at, you know, um, their networks, their support systems, you know, accessibility, um, autonomy of choice, things like that, you know, which, which help, maintain, living well and longevity, frankly. I think, and there's a statistic, actually, that, you know, I just came across. It's something like, well, it's not something like it is, one in four, um, one in four older Canadians doesn't have a friend or family member that lives close enough to help them with the basic tasks.
And that points to the level of vulnerability in communities.
So, basically, it's a testament to why we need to build community and capacity and community, community to care for others, and to have, you know, partnerships with other people, um, in order to, you know, have them, able to, to keep living in their own home and having some quality of life. So, you know, what I got to thinking is, um, how, how different it would be if we had, you know, if we had a more robust system that would, could, could take the time, you know, to, to ask all those questions, to get the, the right care for someone in that state, at that stage of life.
Deja: And lastly, I want to get into some of that kind of practical stuff, which I think you've really been kind of alluding to or mentioning already, which is, you know, really looking at what organizations can do. So do you have just some practical things that organizations can do to make a difference when we think about aging well?
Jocelyn: Yeah, I think just even being reflective, right? Reflective of, you know, maybe their policies or the language that they use. Um, I mean,
I often hear when I'm asked questions like [00:28:00] what is it like dealing with older people? I'm like, well, I'm not really dealing with them but you know…
but that I feel like that comes across very ageist and negative and you're just perpetuating those views. So I think you know looking, you know more high level like what what are how are you actually being inclusive of older people, and let's examine that, let's understand that, and you know, just going back to the Center, I think that's what our purpose is, you know, how do we become more age friendly, and there's actually ten principles that you can follow and become designated as an age friendly campus, so we're working towards that, um, but that is looking at, you know, what programs do we have for older people, what, you know, are we being inclusive, are there, you know, are there opportunities that they can actually participate in So I think just being self reflective with that, um, understanding aging, um, and maybe just some of those biases that we often have, um, I would tell people, connect, connect with someone of a different generation. And then see what happens.
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Deja: I was really struck by the saying Jocelyn shared…When an old person dies, it’s like a library burns down. I don’t think we value older people and honour their wisdom and experience in Western culture the way other cultures do, and that’s led to some real harm and neglect.
The funny thing is, most of us will be the older people in our community eventually. Shouldn’t we endeavour to treat older people the way we will want to be treated? Shouldn’t they be included in the community the way we will, one day, also want to be included?
My Big Idea from this episode is that there is no age limit to learning, to contributing, and to being a valued member of a community. These are merely societal, and self-imposed ageist stereotypes that end up leaving a significant portion of the population, with a significant amount of wisdom, out of the conversation.
Déjà: The Big Ideas podcast is produced by the Office of Alumni Relations at Mount Royal University. A special thanks to MRU journalism and digital media alum, Gabrielle Pyska, for her savvy editing talents.
Until next time, I’m your host, Déjà Leonard and this is Big Ideas.
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Episode runtime [00:30:32]