Déjà: Hi, and welcome to Big Ideas. I’m your host, and Mount Royal University journalism alum, Déjà Leonard.
Big Ideas explores the diverse perspectives, timely research, lived experiences, and hopeful aspirations of MRU alumni, faculty, and students as solutions-focused leaders addressing local challenges.
This season we’re digging deep into wellness in the 21st Century. From aging to technology to our finances, how do the complexities of modern life impact our well-being - for better or for worse? Let’s check out what we’re talking about in today's episode…
So there is age-old knowledge there that has been passed down orally from generation to generation that is just as valid as the western scientific knowledge. And so that one side needs to gain a respect for the other side and in doing that, when we start respecting each other's knowledge and how valuable they both are, then we'll be able to walk in a better way with each other.
Meet MRU alum, Samaria Cardinal.
Samaria began her post-secondary journey in MRU’s Aboriginal Education Program (now called the Indigenous University Bridging Program). She went on to complete her Social Work diploma at MRU before graduating with her Master’s of Social Work this past spring.
After experiencing a grave misdiagnosis that cost her years of her life, Samaria took control of her own health and became a strong healthcare advocate for others.
Today, Samaria pours her energy [00:02:00] and education into improving access to culturally appropriate services for Indigenous people, and blending the best of Western and Indigenous modalities in wellness.
Let’s jump into this conversation, beginning with Samaria’s misdiagnosis…
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Deja Leonard: Good morning, Samaria. How are you?
Samaria: Good morning. I'm doing wonderful.
Deja Leonard: So I'm really excited to jump into this conversation and I want to start with one of your stories. Can you tell us about your own misdiagnosis and how it shaped your views on Western wellness?
Samaria: Yes. I grew, grew up in a family with a lot of intergenerational trauma. And, uh, when I was young, I ended up with a lot of issues. I, I had a lot of trauma. Let's just say that. And at the time, at the time, uh, the system didn't understand trauma. It didn't understand intergenerational trauma. The mental health system was very colonial. I was put into a team that had, uh, nobody that understand, understood, Indigenous culture. And, uh, what happened was I had had a child. I actually had postpartum depression and I was diagnosed as bipolar disorder. And so 15 years of my life was spent getting shock treatment and given huge amounts of, uh, prescription medications to deal with that and nothing worked.
And so I went through life. I couldn't be a mother. I sat there and drooled. I trusted these people. I thought that they knew what they were doing, but obviously they didn't.
And so one day, I actually walked out of the hospital. I fired them. And to further demean me, they sent a security guard to walk me out. And I spent the next two years cutting up the pills and every week I would decrease the dosage [00:04:00] and I finally got off the prescription medications. And then, um, I went to see doctors and every one of them said, you don't have bipolar disorder, you were misdiagnosed. And so that gave me the drive to become a healthcare advocate. And I really, um, got the word out about how I felt about our mental health system and how it was not culturally appropriate. And how it was harming people.
Deja Leonard: Wow. Well, thank you for sharing that. You know, I, I can't imagine. I know it's, not an easy feat even for folks who get put on some of these, you know, types of pills or drugs and really having to wean yourself off of those as, you know, individually without help as well. How do you feel, you know, the emphasis on education and Western systems can sometimes overshadow the value of lived experience, especially, uh, in fields like therapy or healthcare?
Samaria: Yes, when I became a healthcare advocate I spoke at many medical conventions and other things. And because I did not have letters after my name and I just had lived experience I wasn't taken seriously. And so it was quite maddening because I was trying to change a system and a lot of people were not listening to me. So I thought the only thing that I could do was to go back to school. 58 years old, I go back to school.
Deja Leonard: So you got your diploma and then I know you eventually went on to get your Master's, right?
Samaria: Yes.
Deja Leonard: There's a step in between that?
Samaria: There was no stop. I had to get it done. I don't have years to sit around and wait. I got to get, I had to get this done. So I went right from aboriginal education program, right into diploma, right into a Bachelor's [00:06:00], right into a Master's.
Deja Leonard: There we go. In your opinion, what are some of the key ways that Western wellness culture kind of falls short when we think about, you know, wellness for the individual, for our communities, for society?
Samaria: Well, Western wellness traditionally has very been, been segmented. They take the body, and they put it here. They put the mind, they put it over here. They put emotions over here. So, they're compartmentalizing human beings. You can't do that to us. We are all one thing here, you know, like you take away part of us, you're, you're taking away part of that human being. And so it doesn't work. And, you know, it's like, we've got the mental health system. We got the addiction system. We got the cancer care. We got, you know, the eye care, then we got the dental care and all these systems all over the place. And a lot of times they don't talk,
Deja Leonard: Right.
Samaria: Right? So. People have to go all over the place. You're dealing with all these different professionals that don't talk to each other, that are in disciplines that a lot of times don't even really even converse even without their clients, right? So it's very hard for individuals to navigate. Whereas you take the, like our Indigenous system, our Indigenous traditions, everything is linked.
When we talk about medicine, we're not just talking about pills. We're talking about laughter. We're talking about food. We're talking about going out to walk in nature. Everything is medicine because it all heals us.
Deja Leonard: I love that. Um, and I, I would, uh, like to dig in a bit more, to wellness and how it's understood and approached in Indigenous communities. So as you said, you know, it's often more holistic, community centered approach. Is there anything else you want to add to that about kind of the overall approach to [00:08:00], to wellness in Indigenous communities?
Samaria: Um, it's very spiritual as well. And that's another thing you will not find in Western medical systems. They, I think they're afraid to have it, or I don't know what it is in the Western systems. But in Indigenous systems, spirituality is a very big component of wellness. We go to ceremony, we pray, we talk to our ancestors, you know, it's, it's integrated into everything in our culture and in the way we live and in our healing. And you can't take that apart from it.
Deja Leonard: And I love how you mentioned ancestors. It reminds me, um, of the seventh generation principle. Um, and the idea really being that you should think about how the actions you take today impact the next seven generations. But I think it also acknowledges, um, you know, your ancestors as well. And I'm wondering how this idea, you know, the seventh generation principle, how does that help shape the concept of wellness across generations, especially when we're thinking about things like generational trauma.
Samaria: Okay, well, the seven generations, what it is is if I heal myself. I'm just not healing myself, according to the generational, seven generations. I'm healing my ancestors behind me and I'm healing all those that are coming before me. I mean, after me. So, and they've proven with epigenetics that you can change your genes and how they react by, through healing yourself. And then you pass down, you pass down healing. That has been proven by science.
Deja Leonard: And it's so, it's so powerful. I think to think about healing in that way, because as you know, I think in a lot of Western modalities, [00:10:00] um, it's more individual. So it's really, I am healing myself. You know, because I need to, but I think this concept of recognizing that in healing yourself, you are healing your families and your communities. And healing a piece of society really is, uh, such a beautiful thing. It's one of my favorites that we've chatted about.
Samaria: Yes, um, Western society is very individualistic. People are only thinking about themselves and I think that's causing huge issues. In our, all around the world, this individualistic thinking, Indigenous people, we think about the community, we are nothing without our community, and we give back to our community because in giving back to our community, we in turn help ourselves, and that's the same with the generations, when we do something we think how is it going to affect the past, how is it going to affect the future. And even myself, when I do my advocacy work and, and, uh, you know, I'm trying to change the system and I'm trying to fight the fight every day to create a better, more beautiful world.
I don't think I'm going to be around to see a lot of it, but you know what, what I do today is going to affect my daughter and it's going to affect my grandchild and it's going to affect my great grandchild and, and on and on and on.
I may not see it, but I'm going to keep fighting because it's going to help my community and it's going to help my family and my people. And that's how we have that concept. Human beings weren't meant to be individualistic. You know, it's like, we weren't born with claws, we weren't born with, you know, sabers, sabered teeth, and to fight and defend ourselves. These naked little creatures without enough hair [00:12:00] to keep us warm, oh my god, we can't survive out there by ourselves. You know, the other animals would kill us off in an instant. But we grouped together in communities. We protected each other and that's how we survived, not as individuals. So we need to remember that.
Deja Leonard: Absolutely. Thank you for explaining that, and that's a really, uh, clear way to look at it.
Samaria: We heal together. It's really important that, you know, and we have, we have ceremonies where we come together and we heal. And you know, when we, when we heal, we're hit, not just healing us, we're healing the whole community. And, and, and that's, you know, we, when we come together, there's like a whole community will come together to heal, you know, when we go picking for, for plants, for plant medicine, we go as a community, we are nothing as an individual without our community.
Deja Leonard: Yeah, and I think even when I'm thinking about healing, um, through a Western lens and the experience that so many people have, I feel like it can be really isolating. Like, when people go through some of these tough times, whether it's mental health, physical health, um, whatever it might be, you know, when I think about what I've seen, I think a lot of people struggle alone. Like, it's a lonely process, and I think that even having people around you, is healing, feeling supported is like a big part of actually being able to heal. So, yeah, that's a beautiful thing.
Okay, so let's shift and talk a bit more about your therapy practice. And maybe let's start with the concept of, of two-eyed seeing. Can you explain to me what that means?
Samaria: Two eyed seeing is wonderful. Um, so what it is, is I use my Indigenous teachings [00:14:00], traditions, and culture with one eye, and in the other eye, I use the Western. All the Western education and practices and certification I've taken, and I take the boast of, the best of each one of them, and I weave them together to create an experience of healing. And so you're walking in that middle road. And trying to balance out each of them.
Deja Leonard: That doesn't sound, um, necessarily easy. Um, at all times. Um, are you, um, are there specific moments you remember when these two methods maybe clashed or complimented each other? Or, you know, an example of how you, uh, figured out that balance with a client?
Samaria: Ah, it was really hard when I first graduated, I must say, you know, it's like, uh, the ethics and guidelines from being a social worker are very Western colonial also, um, and do not take Indigenous culture into account. And my, my training as a therapist and as a social worker was very Western and colonial. So when I graduated, I had my therapist hat on and I'm going to be really professional in the Western colonial way, you know, and be this therapist that I've trained all these years and everybody's telling me how I have to act as a therapist and be as a therapist.
And, uh, I didn't feel comfortable with it, but I thought that if I didn't act that way, that people wouldn't see me as very professional.
And so one day I had this client, he came in my office and he hadn't even signed the consent form yet. And, uh, he came in and he was sitting [00:16:00] across from me and I had the thing down there and I said, well, I can't provide you therapy until you sign this consent form, and he's just, he's sitting there and he's got his arms crossed and he's like leaning back and just staring at me and, you know, I'm sitting there, you know, all professional and everything. And, uh, he starts talking to me and. He looks at me, and he kind of squints his eyes, and he says, “hmm, who are you?”. And I'm like, kind of like, shaking my head and going, Well, as a therapist, I've been trained not to ever, you know, I don't self disclose. I don't tell people who I am. But in my culture, that's the first thing we do, is we ask, who are you? Where are you from? Who your family is? Like, that's what we do in our culture.
So it was like, I just kind of went, oh my goodness, I have to take off this Western colonial therapist hat and be myself, right? And so I told him, I sat down, told him, I told him a little bit of my journey, and he's just sitting there shaking his head. And then he says to me, “when did you graduate?”. And in my mind, I'm thinking, Oh my goodness, this guy is going to like, he's going to walk out the door if he just finds out I'm a new graduate and I don't know what I'm doing. Right. Like thinking, Oh, what am I going to tell him? And, uh, so I, no, I have to be real here. Right. I'm not going to put on any airs. And I told him, I says, you know what? I just graduated. I just walked across the stage. And I've taken a bunch of fancy certifications, and I've been in school for years, and I said, but you know what? I still don't know anything. I'm learning every day. I'm just trying to walk this world in a humble way [00:18:00], and just, you know, and just live, and I just want to help my people, you know? And, uh, every day I'm going to learn. Every person I see, I'm going to learn from. And I'm probably going to learn until I take my last breath on this earth.
And he just sat back and he relaxed and he cried and he said thank you and he signed the consent form, right?
Deja Leonard: Wow.
Samaria: You know, it's like it just wasn't working the Western way. And another thing I had also done in that session before I had said that, I was offering him Western forms of therapy. Like he had, he, he started telling me a story and then I'm like, okay, according, I put the, what the therapist had back on and I'm like, well, according to your story and what you've told me, you know, I could offer you EMDR, I can offer you this form of therapy, this form... And he just looks at me and he goes, you know what? I'm not interested in that.
You know what I want? I want you to be there. I want you to be a witness and honor my story and everything I've been through. And I said, okay, I am honored to be your witness.
Deja Leonard: Wow. That's a beautiful story.
Samaria: Yeah.
Deja Leonard: And it's just like that. It's that human connection part of it all that I think, maybe that individual was looking for, which is not always. offered when your, healthcare, you're in and out of the doctor's office and under seven minutes, you're, you know, like again, compartmentalizing people and, and trying to find the issue as quickly as possible and fix it versus the healing is in the journey of listening and speaking their truth and their journey. That's, that's such a great example. You know, I, I think that some Western frameworks have evolved over time, you [00:20:00] know, they've started to consider more domains, you know, spiritual, social, environmental wellness. What do you think perhaps wellness or sorry, Western wellness and Indigenous wellness can learn from each other?
Samaria: Um, I think they have a lot to learn from each other. I think, um, Indigenous wellness there are things that they can draw from Western wellness. Like, there are some therapies, like, that I found, like EMDR. I find it, it works wonderfully, uh, with trauma. And so, I do use it, but I indigenize it. So, yes, there are, there are many good things.
And, you know, it's like how I was trained to, uh, to be a therapist. There were many good aspects of that. And it, um, the whole journey helped me grow as an individual. I am not the same person I was when I walked into Mount Royal in the Aboriginal Education Program seven years ago. Right? As much as I'll talk about the Western colonial system, the Western colonial system that I went through provided me with knowledge and I healed myself in the process.
So, that seven years was very valuable to me in becoming, uh, the person I am today. So I will give it that, very much so.
I think the Western colonial system will learn in looking at how Indigenous people do things. And that knowledge, all knowledge does not have to be researched in a scientific way. There is knowledge that is passed down through from generation to generation that indigenous people [00:22:00] have just by observation of plants, by observation of the skies and the animals and watching the land. It does not need a rigorous scientific experiment to prove it.So there is age-old knowledge there that has been passed down orally from generation to generation that is just as valid as the western scientific knowledge.
And so that one side needs to gain a respect for the other side and in doing that, when we start respecting each other's knowledge and how valuable they both are, then we'll be able to walk in a better way with each other.
Deja Leonard: What is one key takeaway for our listeners who want to adopt a more balanced approach to wellness in their own lives?
Samaria: When you look at a balanced approach to wellness, it is everything. So you need to go out and feed your mind, feed your body, feed your soul. Look after your emotional aspect of yourself. Everything needs to be in balance. And I know what helps a lot of people is, um, if you put it on, if you use the medicine wheel teachings. And just a point, the medicine wheels that we see nowadays, that is a new thing. That is not something that, we never used medicine wheels before, but what we use these diagrams for now is to understand concepts, Indigenous teachings and concepts. And so what you can do is you can have that medicine wheel with all those quadrants of wellness on it. And you can look at each one and see how you are in each one. Is there something missing in your spiritual [00:24:00] aspect? Okay, well, I got to work on that area. I got to add something like that to my wellness. Because if we don't, if we are not balanced in all those areas, We're going to be, you know, shifted to the side there.We're not going to be standing and be balanced and be grounded for ourselves.
So wellness and healing is always something that we need to work on because, you know, some, something, maybe our health will go off and we get shifted a little off. We got to look after that, come in balance again. You know, maybe we're having an emotional distressful time, we got to deal with that. We got to learn how to, how to, you know, look at those emotions and shift it and come into balance again. So it's really important that we look at all aspects. We don't just look at the Western mental health, because the whole system is going to fall apart if we just do that.
Deja Leonard: Excellent. Okay, um, so I also heard you have a new partnership forming with an Ontario based organization, I believe, uh, with the goal being to provide free therapy to Indigenous peoples. Um, can you tell me more about that and make sure I have the information right for that?
Samaria: Yes, um, I, uh, I have a contract with, uh, Noojimo Health, and Noojimo is Anishinaabe, which means healing. And, uh, they're an Ontario based, or all, they're an Ontario based organization. They are an all Indigenous virtual health care clinic. All the therapists are Indigenous and we provide therapy for Indigenous clients. And they have expanded across Canada and we now have Alberta. I am the Alberta lead and I have just finished hiring a bunch of therapists. And [00:26:00] Noojimo has partnered up with a large insurance company in Canada and they have, uh, their doing this Alberta project and they have been given a large amount of funds to provide free therapy for non-status individuals, which is non-status and Métis individuals.
So we're very excited about this and it's just getting on the ground right now and um hopefully, like, like I said, this is just a, this is a new project, and if it goes well, we won't have to worry about the funding, they'll keep funding it.
And that is going to help so many people, and that is why I got into therapy to do that, and I am just so excited for it.
Deja Leonard: Well, that sounds incredibly impactful, so congratulations and I look forward to seeing what comes from that. So Samaria, how else are you involved in shaping wellness in Canada?
Samaria: Well, I work with two wonderful organizations. One of them is the Mental Health Commission of Canada, and the other one is Healthcare Excellence Canada. The Mental Health Commission of Canada, I've done webinars with them, and I sit on some committees, and, uh, what, what the Mental Health Commission of Canada wants to do is to create a mental health care system for everyone in Canada, just like our medical system. And when I got on that committee, you know, that was a few years ago, I got on there, uh, on that committee as a person with lived experience and representing my community, and now I'm a person that also has an education, and they actually listen to me and implement changes that I, that I give to them. So it's wonderful.
Health Care Excellence Canada is a huge [00:28:00] organization and they are funded by Health Canada and they do a lot of research and policy change. And I sit on two committees with them and yeah, when I started these organizations, you know, I didn't think that they would listen, but they do, and it is so rewarding because I get to see national changes being implemented from these programs and from things that I am talking about with them, and I see changes happening to our systems. And believe me, if I wasn't being listened to and I didn't think it was worth it, I'd be out of there. But these organizations, I've been working with them for a number of years now, and I really honour what they're doing.
Deja Leonard: It sounds like a lot of great work is being done there and I can't imagine being able to see some of the change roll out. Uh, it must feel incredible, so thank you for sharing that.
Samaria: Oh, it's been wonderful.
Deja Leonard: Um, any last comments from you before we wrap up?
Samaria: We all have a purpose. And sometimes, when we’re younger we don’t understand that purpose. But when you find it? Go for it. And do, do what you need to do to find your purpose in life because when you find it, and you get the training, and you get the education, and you go out there and you find your purpose and you’re actually doing it? There’s nothing better or more fulfilling than that.
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Deja Leonard: That was a powerful conversation on wellness, healing, and the need for holistic approaches that honour both Indigenous knowledge and Western frameworks. A huge thank you to Samaria for sharing her story, her wisdom, and her journey.
Her insight into how we can heal not just as individuals, but as communities [00:30:00] and across generations, is truly inspiring.
The Big Idea that resonated with me is that being well encompasses so much more than our individual mental and physical health. Wellness is the result of consistent practices that involve our whole selves and our communities. There is so much we can learn when we open our eyes to different ways of healing.
Déjà: The Big Ideas podcast is produced by the Office of Alumni Relations at Mount Royal University. A special thanks to MRU journalism and digital media alum, Gabrielle Pyska, for her savvy editing talents.
Until next time, I’m your host, Déjà Leonard and this is Big Ideas.
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