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Déjà: Hi, and welcome to Big Ideas. I’m your host, and Mount Royal University journalism alum, Déjà Leonard.
Big Ideas explores the diverse perspectives, timely research, lived experiences, and hopeful aspirations of MRU alumni, faculty, and students as solutions-focused leaders addressing local challenges.
This season we’re digging deep into wellness in the 21st century. From aging to technology to our finances, how do the complexities of modern life impact our well-being - for better or for worse? Let’s check out what we’re talking about in today's episode…
Well, I think that so many of us are terrified to do the wrong thing when it comes to our money and focus so heavily on doing the right thing. But in reality the right thing is going to look different for every single one of us…
Déjà: That’s MRU alum, Alyssa Davies: founder of the personal finance blog, Mixed Up Money, author of two books; the 100 Day Financial Goal Journal and Financial First Aid, and co-host of the Money Feels podcast.
She joined me for a very honest conversation about our complicated relationship with money and how we can untangle the emotional connections to our finances so we can make our money make sense.
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Déjà: How are you today, Alyssa?
Alyssa: I'm doing great, how about you?
Déjà: I am excellent, thank you. I have been looking forward to this conversation, [00:02:00] as you know. I think money can be a really intimidating topic and I'm super excited to dig in and I figure we'll kind of start this off by level setting the conversation and addressing our current economic environment. So my first big question for you is what's going on right now that is impacting people and their finances?
Alyssa: Honestly, what isn't going on right now? It is a very scary time for a lot of people financially. And so, right off the bat, I just want to say, you're definitely not alone. If you are feeling worried about your financial situation or about your future, because yeah, we're dealing with an economy where there are high interest rates, high rates of inflation. So everyone's a little bit more cautious about how they're spending their money. We're also seeing a bit of a weak job market, which can be scary for people that are new grads. So higher unemployment rates are expected.
All in all, it's just very overwhelming and it's super important to get really clear on what you want to do with your money so that you can remove some of those fears and anxieties.
Déjà: Absolutely. Yeah, it's very complex right now and when you mentioned those new grads, it's like there's so many competing priorities as well. When you think about things like student loans and just, you know, thinking about the future itself can be quite existential at that time in life. And then on top of that, like I was kind of saying, you know, talking about money can be a bit of a faux pas. So from your perspective, why is that? Like, why is it tough to talk about money?
Alyssa: Well, right off the bat, most people just don't have friends or family that they can speak to about money. And so, when we finally realize we don't actually know what we're doing, because maybe we didn't receive a lot of financial education growing up, or in our household, [00:04:00] it was told that it's actually not appropriate to talk about money, which is something that's really common for people to hear, we think that that is the norm. And that we shouldn't talk about money with other people because it's rude. Or society tells us that we need to keep this individual and secret. But in reality, we don't benefit from that because we need that human behavior to kind of connect us to one another. So when you see social media now, and you see trends like Girl Math or Loud Budgeting, you start to realize that we all kind of do similar things with our money. And we need to give money that same kind of space and attention and time that we give our mental and physical well being.
Déjà: You know, I just came across, ah, Loud Budgeting and I'm not 100 percent sure what it is. Is that something that you can explain to me?
Alyssa: Yeah, so essentially it's just people blatantly sharing where their money goes, what they're spending their money on, and having conversations about this publicly so that people in their lives know where they're at and being more comfortable with telling your friends like, hey,
I can't afford this thing right now because I'm focusing on this part of my money.
So it's actually a really positive trend in my opinion, because it's giving us an opportunity to, ya, get loud about what we're doing with our finances.
Déjà: Wow. Okay. That is incredible. I love that. Um, and let's go back a little bit. You were talking about how, you know, our family life and the way we grew up can impact the way that we think about money and it's really deep rooted and impacts us all differently. So I actually heard you are working toward becoming a therapist so you can address the ways money and mental health are intertwined. I would love if you could tell me a little bit about that.
Alyssa: Absolutely. This is one of my favorite things to talk about when it comes to money. Um, money, a lot of people don't really realize we actually have some [00:06:00] invisible scripts that exist within us that we did learn from the people in our lives or the experiences that we've had when it comes to our money. So there is actually a very well renowned figure in the financial psychology space and his name is Brad Klontz and he's come up with this sort of conversation about money scripts, which are these deep seated beliefs about money that we typically form during childhood. And these beliefs actually subconsciously guide our financial behaviors and our health. And they're often inherited from previous generations. And a lot of times they're only partially true. So we may believe something that's not actually based in reality. And so when we start to learn about these scripts, it kind of clarifies the reasons or the why behind many of our financial decisions.
Déjà: That's really interesting. I know you've actually had your own kind of personal journey with money as well. Um, we talked a bit about, you know, some anxieties and what that process has been like for you. Can you share a bit of that story?
Alyssa: Sure, so back in 2015 is actually when I first started my money journey, I guess you could call it. I'm still on a journey, I feel like it's never ending when it comes to finance. But I was actually in a lot of debt when I graduated from school. I had student loans and I had a lot of consumer debt, honestly, just from irresponsible spending, like I don't have any good excuse for the ways that I spent my money. And so I landed a job working for a not for profit debt consolidation organization.
I was working in their marketing department and I quickly realized the people that we were trying to help were actually me. And it was a really scary moment…
because I suddenly realized, like, [00:08:00] if I keep going down this path where I don't have control of my money, it’s going to be controlling me. And so I really started to learn and consume as much personal finance content as I could get my hands on. And it changed my life, obviously, um, that's what I'm super passionate about now and it was the best decision I made because it offered me an opportunity to, yeah, take back control of my money, understand that I had experienced things like financial anxiety, scarcity and that I actually had a really unhealthy relationship with how I was spending and saving my money.
Déjà: Absolutely. Thank you for sharing that. And I think I've heard, uh, the big bad word debt a couple of times already in our conversation. Um, and it's really interesting. You know, I think that people always think they have to pay down everything as fast as possible. And that's also a part of that financial anxiety.
What do you think about that kind of idea in terms of, like, making strategic decisions about paying down debt?
Alyssa: I think that's where I have some differing opinions compared to what most financial experts might. Most people will say, like, you need to tackle your debt. You need to approach paying off your debt by going for the debt that has the highest interest rate, which for most people is their credit card debt. And while that is very important and not inaccurate,
I am someone who always offers up the idea that you should consider your mental health first. Consider how you're feeling about your debt first.
Because for some of us, there are debts that weigh more heavily on us than others. So for instance, maybe you have debt from a family member or a relative who is trying to help you through your education and you want to be able to pay them back. Or there are some strings there that you didn't think would be there when you originally made this deal.
You [00:10:00] want to consider your feelings when you are paying off your debt. And as far as how quickly you need to pay off your debt, if you're talking about something like student loans that traditionally have a more low level interest rate, it's actually not as big of a rush or scary piece of debt as it might feel or sound because most people are like, you've got to get rid of that debt so you can move on.
What I think a lot of people forget when it comes to their finances is that security piece that removes so much of the worry and doubt when it comes to your money.
So before you even pay off your debt, you actually need to consider putting together some sort of emergency fund or pocket of money that you can reach too in times when you will inevitably face something that comes out of nowhere and can actually derail your entire debt repayment plan that you had.
So yes, you need to pay off your debt. Of course that should be a priority, but you do have to consider what other obligations you have. And make sure that you feel secure enough so that you can continue to pay off your debt, and get it done on your timeline.
Déjà: That, that makes a ton of sense. It's like this holistic approach you can take to money that you take to other things, like we said, like wellness and mental health and, and things like that. So, you know, I think when we think about making decisions about money, people always want to do research and want to lean towards experts and often people turn to the bank first. Um, but I think it's also important to remember that banks are businesses. So from your experience, where do you recommend that people get advice or do research?
Alyssa: That's exactly it. You just nailed it. We all want to go to our bank because that's who has our money. That's who does money for us. And it's a really easy option. You just walk in and you're like, what do I do? I need to set up some investments. Uh, yeah, I always tell [00:12:00] people that unfortunately they're still salespeople and they are still working to make some money off of you.
So definitely something to keep in mind when it comes to where you're getting your financial advice, because if it's not unbiased, it's not really advice.
And that's when I think I always remind people that there are more places to get advice, or at least comfort. Or just people who make you feel like you are capable of learning. Because a lot of us have just been left out of the conversation when it comes to money. Uh, a lot of us are not traditionally who we see in that space. And so, I think that you can find a lot of really great people on the internet who can at least get you comfortable with money and who you can relate to and who you can learn from. So, I'm not saying get all of your financial advice from social media. I am saying you can find people that do things the way you do them that are on a similar path that you are on online and actually start your journey there because it's less intimidating, it's low cost, there are less barriers, and then you can look at pursuing someone who is a fee based financial planner.
That's always where I encourage people to go if they're looking for someone to help them set up their investments, get a financial plan going, who need that extra support when it comes to budgeting, because their only goal is to help. They're not there to sell you anything. They're just there to support you in your journey.
Déjà: Awesome. That's some really great advice. And I think sometimes people can be maybe a little bit, a bit weary of getting advice from social media, but like you said, I mean, there's a ton of experts out there. And for the most part, uh, people are just happy to share their journey, their advice and what worked for them.
Um, so let's switch gears a little bit. Let's say I am graduating university soon. What [00:14:00] are some things I should take inventory of or do to kind of start getting my finances in order?
Alyssa: So this is a great question and something I'm sure a lot of people have on their mind if they are just graduating. And the first place I always tell people to start is kind of by taking inventory of their money. So, what I mean by that is you kind of need to know how much income you're bringing in every single month and ensure that you're not overspending. So once you know how much money you have coming in, you actually want to take a look at what you're spending.
And this is scary for some people. Because it means actually going into your bank accounts and pulling out your receipts and looking at where you're spending your money.
Um, get comfortable looking at these numbers. I think it's a really healthy and helpful thing to do, to go in and print off your last three to six months of statements and actually sit down and do this by hand. Just so that, just once, you don't have to do this all the time, but just so you really get a good idea of what you're doing with your money.
What purchases make you happy, what purchases frustrate you, what numbers keep coming up over and over and over again. And then you can start to set up your habits or your goals. So whether that's debt repayment, whether that's creating an emergency fund, because remember we want to have that security piece covered first, and investing and looking at, like, what do I need to prioritize?
Déjà: Excellent. I'm sure there are a bunch of folks listening in, taking notes right now, and like you said, I think that also with things like Apple Pay, like Tap, like, it's really easy not to think about all of the purchases that you're making super consciously, and I do want to get into, um, some of that shortly.
I guess let's talk a bit about how to make decisions when it comes to spending money. You had mentioned kind of taking note of how you feel after certain purchases, um, and things like that. And [00:16:00] I think it can be tough when we're constantly advertised to, or we feel guilty, um, you know, when we're making purchases. So, you know, what comment do you have on that? Or how should our values, I guess, like, play into our finances?
Alyssa: Spending guilt is actually very normal. It's very, like the percentages of how many people make a purchase and then regret that purchase or feel guilty about that purchase are extremely high. So that's not an unusual feeling to have.
Unfortunately, when it comes to money, we actually attach a lot of morality to our decisions and I think that a reframe there is just making money morally neutral.
Uh, it doesn't make you a good or a bad person dependent on how you choose to use your money. What you actually said, though, that's super important was the word value. That is the key to making great money related decisions for you. And based in that “feels first” approach, I'll call it, where you kind of do something called value based spending. And what value based spending is, just identifying the purchases that bring you joy and bring you happiness, or are the most significant for you. And that kind of shows you what your financial priorities are right there. So you can kind of go through your purchases and look for those. And then you can concentrate on like two or three areas that reflect how you relate yourself and others, to kind of avoid these impulsive purchases.
So this method just really prioritizes spending on what genuinely matters to you and helps you create this more fulfilling lifestyle almost immediately.
Because what you can do is look at what you value versus what you don't. And [00:18:00] understanding also what you dislike, like the purchases that frustrate you when you see them, can provide insight into what you're passionate about and also help you tailor your budget accordingly. And obviously we're all going to be, like, frustrated if we have to pay rent that's really high. So we can't really remove that from our budget, even though it might not be a value of ours. But for instance, if you really value having a comfortable and safe place to live, then maybe you spend more on rent than someone else might.
Déjà: Excellent. It's really interesting that you're saying that because I'm also thinking about some of the shame that can be around spending. You know, for example, for myself, um, I was chatting with a friend and I had to be out of the house for like three hours because I was paying to get my house cleaned, but I didn't really want to, I almost felt shame in saying that I was paying for that. But I think that there's that piece of value where, you know, if I can take off for a couple hours, be social and then maybe get, you know, a passion of mine done, that's okay to spend your money that way. It doesn't have to be a shameful thing because I could technically do it myself.
Alyssa: One of the best questions you can ask yourself when you're feeling any sort of shame about your money is actually whose shame is this?
A majority of the time you'll quickly realize this is not actually something I believe.
It might be something that you were told growing up. It might be cultural beliefs. It might be, uh, previous negative experiences or pressure from other people or judgment from other people. But rarely is it something that you feel. It's something that you think other people will assume.
Déjà: That's very interesting. And I think the concept of shame itself, but “the whose shame is it” question is very much tied back to, I think a lot of the, the mental health, uh, kind of challenges that folks [00:20:00] are facing. Um, but I would love to get into your book. Well, one of your books, the 100 Day Financial Goal Journal that I mentioned.
And from what I understand, it kind of helps people put some of these best practices into place that you've been chatting about. So can you first just tell me what is the goal of this journal? How does it work?
Alyssa: So the goal of the journal is in the name. It's giving you an opportunity to save for any financial goal in that 100 day period. So, essentially, in every single chapter, there is a lesson that's very simple. Really introductory for people who are just starting their financial journey, and every single day offers you an opportunity to track how you're feeling, because that actually correlates to the decisions you'll make when it comes to your money, and what you've done with your money that day.
It's really quick, painless, and it just gets you in the habit of getting more familiar with your money behaviors.
Déjà: I did take a look on Amazon. It has amazing reviews. Um, I'm curious, was, was this kind of something that you practiced yourself and you found it useful and wanted to kind of get it down on paper and that's how it evolved? Or how did you, how did you know that people wanted something like this in that format?
Alyssa: I think because when I actually put this book out and when I started my financial journey, no one in the space was really talking about the mental health piece. It's way more prevalent now and thank goodness because it is so needed, but at the time it just wasn't something that people were considering. Like. does my mood impact my spending? And yes, of course it does.
And so I really wanted to be able to have a space for people to learn more about that. And I do, I am someone who's very much pen to paper because I think it hits harder because everything we do in our life now is based on the internet. Like I saw an influencer say, [00:22:00] we used to say BRB and leave the internet. And now it's just like, we never leave.
And so I think if you can give yourself any opportunity to remove yourself and get pen to paper with your money, it's very helpful.
And while I don't actually use the journal anymore for myself, what I do still do is I track my non-essential purchases any month that I feel like I need a reset. It's just a really quick, like, I put an emoji for that day, whether I spent money I didn't need to spend or whether I did. And it's a reflection at the end of the day, like, was this worth the purchase? How do I feel? And gets me more centered in the values again that I want to be focusing on.
Déjà: That's really great. It's almost like when you go through that process, you work up that muscle, then when you need to kind of refresh, it's easier and you can, uh, keep that consistent throughout your life.
Alyssa: Yes. That's always what I say, like money is like a muscle. You have to, the more you talk about it, the easier it becomes. It's kind of like lifting weights. The more you lift weights, the easier it becomes.
Déjà: I love that. Um, and we have one more, right? You have another book. Uh, tell us a little bit about that.
Alyssa: Sure. So my second book is called Financial First Aid, and that one is primarily focused on anxiety and that security piece.
I have dealt with financial anxiety a lot in the past decade and I still deal with it today.
And so I kind of talk about all of the ways that you can safeguard your finances. So I really dive into those emergency funds that you need, um, everything you should consider if you have some sort of expense that comes up that you either can't afford or weren't expecting and what you can do in those situations.
Déjà: That sounds super helpful. I would love to touch a bit more on financial anxiety itself. How can that manifest? Like in my mind. I see it. [00:24:00] I'm assuming there's a spectrum, but I see it, it could be financial anxiety and then you spend or financial anxiety and you, you kind of hoard your money. What can that look like?
Alyssa: So both of those things are true. One of the things that happens with financial anxiety is it actually becomes really debilitating to make most financial decisions. And so that is usually because you are so wrapped up in the what ifs. And it's not unlike just regular everyday anxiety. But it's just very much connected to your money.
So you could be super anxious about having to spend money that you've saved or super anxious about the decisions you've made in the past or the decisions you might have to make in the future.
And when it comes to your mental health, like, it shows up both mentally and physically in those kinds of stress responses. And essentially your nervous system is just out of whack, right? When you're dealing with any sort of anxiety. And so, it just really makes it difficult to feel secure.
Déjà: What are your thoughts or what would you say to someone who's in the position where they truly feel like they cannot make ends meet when it comes to their finances?
Alyssa: So in this situation, you actually have to look at what you can control. And in those moments, what you can control is how much you're spending, to a certain extent, how much these things cost. So, when we are in a situation where we're spending more than we have, more than we bring in, something in our budget is broken. So we do have to sit down and start to get really serious about what parts of that budget need fixing. And for a lot of us, it's actually going to be those bigger fixed expenses. [00:26:00]
So a lot of people will say, cut out the coffee, cut out takeout, stop being happy, essentially. And I say, let's wait until we have to remove all of the things that bring us joy.
And let's look at these fixed expenses first, which will be your rent, your phone bill, your electricity, all of these bigger expenses that are the same every single month. Because if we can change one of those expenses, we're going to actually be in a great spot because it's fixed. So every single month, you're going to have that extra money in your pocket. So sit down and figure out what's broken and whether or not you can fix it. And if those fixed expenses can't be changed, then you'll have to start looking at, unfortunately, those smaller expenses that you can cut back.
Déjà: Totally. That makes a ton of sense. Um, and we're kind of coming to our wrap up, uh, and there's one topic I know you wrote about it on your blog, and I'm quite sure you've addressed this in your podcast and books, but that is giving yourself grace. So why, what does that look like? Why is it important? What's your take on it?
Alyssa: Well, I think that so many of us are terrified to do the wrong thing when it comes to our money and focus so heavily on doing the right thing. But, in reality, the right thing is going to look different for every single one of us, because we all have different backgrounds, different life experiences, different financial situations that are current and present in our lives. And so when you put this pressure on yourself to do everything right, you make it way more stressful for yourself and way more difficult to, again, make those bigger decisions.
And so I say, give yourself grace because we started this conversation off by talking about our current economy. And it's not you. [00:28:00] It's not anything that you're doing wrong.
The system that we exist in with finance is actually built for the majority of us to fail.
And, so I want a lot of people to recognize that although there are things you should do to create strong financial habits and to give yourself an opportunity for financial success, you aren't doing anything wrong and it's not your fault. And although that can't change anything with your financial situation, it is important to just validate the feelings that you have because those struggles are real and it is really hard right now.
Déjà: Wow. Well, that is a very inspiring note to end off. Um, we covered a lot of ground here, and money is such an important thing to talk about. And I think it's really great, uh, to, you know, help our listeners start exploring this topic and hopefully start taking some positive actions based on some of that advice that you gave us.
Alyssa: Yes, that's exactly why I'm going to school to have that financial therapy accessible for Canadians because it is extremely layered and there are so many different pieces because money is intertwined with everything we do in life. And so if we can kind of start to dissect that and recognize what parts of it matter and what parts of it don't, we’re going to be much better off and we're going to be much more financially successful because success will be defined by our terms and not someone else's.
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Déjà:That was such an insightful conversation with Alyssa!
I learned so many things about managing money that I hadn’t really considered before, like understanding how my invisible money script impacts the financial decisions I make.
If there’s one Big Idea I came away with, it's that money is unique to each of us and there is no singular “right” way to manage your finances. [00:30:00] You can alleviate a lot of anxiety and guilt associated with money by focusing on your goals and values and building a plan that works for you.
If you’d like to learn more, check out Alyssa’s website at mixedupmoney.ca.
Déjà: The Big Ideas podcast is produced by the Office of Alumni Relations at Mount Royal University. A special thanks to MRU journalism and digital media alum, Gabrielle Pyska, for her savvy editing talents.
Until next time, I’m your host, Déjà Leonard and this is Big Ideas.
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